I’m not sure, to be honest. I think a big problem is that most trailers now give you the whole story of the film. It’s very rare to see a trailer that captures your interest and doesn’t give the plot of a film away.
It might also be just a general apathy towards most cinema. While everyone loves to bash on the MCU for “ruining cinema,” in actuality it’s the yobbos that have tried and failed to emulate those films - Sony, WB/DC, whomever made the new Jurassic Park films - that are to blame.
Many franchise films play it say, with few exceptions. Non franchise films, at least outside of horror, to me mostly look like pretentious claptrap.
We don’t get risky genre films like The Matrix,Event Horizon, Blues Brothers, * One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest,* Lord of the Rings etc anymore. Actually, of the big successful films of the last 10+ years I’d argue Marvel Pictures has taken the most risks and shown more than most they are willing to experiment, but yet people shit on them all the time.
Maybe it’s due to age, but I find it hard to really get excited for a film unless I’ve a pre-existing attachment to it for some reason, which I realise makes me part of the problem.
I actually love the MCU, though I can understand some criticisms of it post-Endgame. For example, a couple years ago my friend was telling me during our Movie Awards that he likes the MCU movies still but he has no idea what they’re setting up. He’s not entrenched in comics at all and it took me explaining things they COULD be setting up concerning Secret Wars and resetting the whole universe. Now, I only know this because I like to watch YouTube channels like Comics Explained, since I don’t really have the time to invest in getting that into comics. But I also think the MCU is the golden age of mainstream flicks. I know people won’t agree, but I love superhero movies and the way everything came together is awesome. I rewatch Infinity War and Endgame every so often. I would rewatch everything but that’s a huge time investment.
Do you, or did you, watch a lot of movies? If you don’t/didn’t, maybe you have to dig a little deeper to find stuff you like? But then again, you say that a lot of non-franchise films look like pretentious claptrap, so maybe that’s not the answer. I don’t know. I watch 100+ movies every year and I’m excited often. I can’t really jive with the apathy, not saying you’re wrong to feel that way. I get it. Just trying to get to the bottom of why you might feel this way.
What do you consider pretentious? Is the stuff A24 puts out pretentious to you?
Some of the criticisms people have about post Endgame MCU really bother me. The whole “it’s not going anywhere” argument is stupid and shows that they’ve not been paying attention to the films. There were hints as to where the original 10 years would end up as early as Thor if you care to look, it’s just very subtle. The new films certainly have been building to something, although what that something might be is a little out of skew now due to what happened with the bloke that played Kang. I can understand people not enjoying some of the individual films as much, but to say they don’t know what they are doing is simply wrong (I’ll never understand how people don’t enjoy Multiverse of Madness, though).
I’ll just add to the previous thought that I am steeped in comic lore, so I recognise hints that others may not, but just because people don’t understand what something in the background or a seemingly throw away line means doesn’t mean they aren’t doing a good job of building to a larger story.
Anyway…
Based on your metric of watching 100+ films a year then, no, I don’t watch a lot of movies. I don’t know how many I’d watch in a year, but I doubt it’d be close to 100. In regards to A24 and pretentiousness, I took a look at their output and of the films of theirs I’ve seen my opinions are as follows;
Everything Everywhere All at Once - brilliant
Talk to Me - brilliant, but as it’s an Aussie film I would have seen it regardless. I support every Australian film I can (which can be tricky at times)
Hereditary - absolutely gut wrenchingly pretentious. I wish I could get that time back.
Midsommar - it was okay, but I’d be happy if I never saw it again
Ex Machina - quite enjoyed it
Room - a really interesting film. I enjoyed it, but again wouldn’t be worried if I never had a re-watch
The Witch - see Hereditary
The Lobster - fuck me! I’m actually offended that people thought this movie was good.
The Monster - loved it. One of the best monster movies I’ve seen
The Florida Project - DaFoe was the only good thing about it
The Disaster Artist - great film, and a wonderful look as someone who, possibly, could have just been misunderstood.
The Hole in the Ground - It was okay, but nothing special
Saint Maud - huge let down
The Green Knight - boring. Stopped half way through
X - I remember enjoying it, but can’t actually remember anything about it.
Men - absolute and utter tosh. It also totally bastardises the mythology of the Green Man.
Their films I’ve not listed I’ve not seen. Don’t know if that helps in your assessment of me.
The only “pretentious” film that I really enjoy is Cash Back. Absolutely love it, and Emilia Fox playing a stripper is only part of the reason.
JoeyPajamas& Knuckles Some of the criticisms people have about post Endgame MCU really bother me. The whole “it’s not going anywhere” argument is stupid and shows that they’ve not been paying attention to the films. There were hints as to where the original 10 years would end up as early as Thor if you care to look, it’s just very subtle. The new films certainly have been building to something, although what that something might be is a little out of skew now due to what happened with the bloke that played Kang. I can understand people not enjoying some of the individual films as much, but to say they don’t know what they are doing is simply wrong (I’ll never understand how people don’t enjoy Multiverse of Madness, though).
I think there’s probably a compromise between what you’re saying and the criticism. Post-Endgame, I think it wasn’t so obvious what they were setting up, and your knowledge of the lore likely helped you more than you realize. I wasn’t familiar and then when I listened to some nerds I was like “ooooh” and I got more into it. Now, that’s just me, but I think it’s valid. But after so many movies and shows, I think its direction is becoming more visible. I don’t know why people are hard on Multiverse of Madness either. It’s great. And I’ll say it, Phase 1 wasn’t full of bangers and Phase 4 had some great movies in it too. Though I do think the Multiverse Saga is a little messier than it could have been, even ignoring Kang’s legal troubles.
You and I got serious disagreements on some of these A24 films but okay, I’m starting to get a decent understanding of what you consider pretentious. To return to an earlier comment you made, why are non-franchise horror movies less pretentious, generally?
What are some of your favourite movies of all time?
Don’t know if that helps in your assessment of me.
Haha, it’s just interesting getting to know people. I doubt I can help your feelings towards movies these days but I’m doing my best.
I’m kind of at a loss to understand how Hereditary is pretentious. I mean, I get that lots of people don’t like things like arthouse horror, but Hereditary really isn’t arthouse, nor is it particularly inaccessible. It’s very much in the vein of something like The Exorcist, albeit reflective of a different time period and less a product of satanic panic than something that is just generally excited to engage with elements of demonic possession stories.
You and I got serious disagreements on some of these A24 films but okay, I’m starting to get a decent understanding of what you consider pretentious
And what would you say that is?
Because, generally, they don’t try to pretend they are anything more than what they set out to be. Take Talk To Me for example. It didn’t try to be anything more than a great horror film. It didn’t try to reach into the existential dilemma of humanity or something. It had a clear goal and a fresh idea of how to achieve it, and did it very well. That’s more than I can say for Hereditary which just carried on with a bunch of uninteresting rubbish and then suddenly went “oh, crap, there has to be a baddie” so threw a random cult in there. The Void is 100% a better cult horror film than Hereditary but it never gets the same praise.
My two most favourite film of all time are Ghostbusters and The Matrix. After that ther is no real order, but ones that are up there are Back to the Future, Day the Earth Stood Still (the original), Blues Brothers, LotR trilogy, Avengers, Into the Spider-Verse, The Crow, Empire Records,The Castle, Life of Brian, and plenty of others I can’t think of off the top of my head.
Actually, The Matrix is a perfect example of a film that has high concepts but doesn’t let its ego get in the way. It can be an awesome action flick on one lever, or an examination of faith, fate, humanity and identity on the other. Every single scene in The Matrix matters, from dialogue to action. All of it tells the bigger picture. All The Witch did was go “the past times and Old English. Oooooh.”
I can’t actually tell if you’re joking or not so I’ll just assume that you are.
And what would you say that is?
Just in terms of your views on certain A24 films, such as Hereditary, The Florida Project, some others. No biggie.
Because, generally, they don’t try to pretend they are anything more than what they set out to be. Take Talk To Me for example. It didn’t try to be anything more than a great horror film. It didn’t try to reach into the existential dilemma of humanity or something. It had a clear goal and a fresh idea of how to achieve it, and did it very well.
Ah okay, but a lot of horror does examine issues. Like BMO said, I can understand why people don’t like Hereditary, but there’s not much difference, in this regard, between Talk To Me and Hereditary. Just not your speed.
Your favourite movies
Gotcha. Some solid choices in there. We have no disagreements on The Matrix. Did you ever see Dark City?
I would consider Hereditary arthouse, but obviously there are different levels of arthouse and I agree, it’s not particularly inaccessible. I can understand why somebody wouldn’t like it. It’s more of a drama than a horror for like an hour (don’t quote me on that, it’s not an exact time). It’s slow. But I love it. I don’t love Ari Aster’s other movies (like them, but they aren’t as good), but the direction in Hereditary is superb.
I don’t particularly share that perspective. Aster is largely in dialogue with popular horror, both mainstream and cult, but he operates within the fairly standard paradigm of Hollywood filmmaking norms. Obviously he’s on the margins of that, but I don’t think his goal, nor is any unintended outcomes of his films, really place him in arthouse. The pace and character driven aspects of Hereditary very much align it with The Exorcist and he’s trying to recapture the feeling of horror like that. I think he is successful because he wields affect effectively.
At best he’s a person who likes mainstream and arthouse horror and tries to bring some of the sensibilities of the latter to films that are the former.
The thing is, I don’t really disagree with your reasoning, but our conclusions differ. When you say “obviously he’s on the margins of that,” it just makes me think that regardless of what you say his goal is, the final product dips into arthouse, so it ends up being arthouse. Maybe more mainstream than something like, I don’t know, Stan Brakhage, but it’s a broad term. His sensibilities align him with arthouse too. I mean, I could settle on arthouse-lite if you’d like?
Edit: I edited out “very much” before “dips” because “very much” says something stronger than I wanted.
Sorry, I meant why do YOU think I feel those movies are pretentious? Just wondering if I’ve been able to get across what I mean. For the record, I didn’t find The Florida Project pretentious, just incredibly uninteresting.
Yes, it can do, but there is a difference between commenting on certain things in a way that fits in with the theme and narrative of your film. Pretentious films present their “message” as if it is The Truth in such a way that is alienating to the rest of the film or, at the very least, is so concerned with its own seriousness that it detracts from the viewing experience. At least that’s how I tend to view things.
Yep, brilliant film. Directed by Alex Proyas who also did The Crow.
I think you can borrow from arthouse without really being arthouse. I think horror is also a complex category because lots of exploitation horror is quite thoughtful and then, in-turn, influences art house, and vice-versa. But for my money Aster is only art house adjacent due to his influences. Someone like Peter Strickland is a director I’d consider arthouse.
I mean, if you think that saying nerds in the context I said it is hate speech, even 50 percent, I don’t know what to tell you. This isn’t a road I particularly want to go down but we can.
And my bad. Well, I was only starting to get a decent understanding, so I wasn’t really ready to declare I understood. But you told me your definition now. I only use the word pretentious rarely when describing anything because while your definition is totally sound, I find it hard to apply to things in a consistent way.
Yeah, you can. But I still think Aster slips into arthouse. But we can just leave this here so we don’t go down a rabbit hole. I’m only really familiar with In Fabric but according to my review I thought it was a 7/10. I wish I could comment more on that in relation to what you said but if I’m being honest, I don’t remember a thing about it. I wasn’t even sure if I saw it or not.
I get what you mean, but my point is that he’s someone dabbling with art house to bring it to a mainstream audience, rather than someone concerned with pushing some of the envelopes that art house directors might. But I can agree to say he’s somewhat arthouse in his approach. I’m also not trying to claim your point is wrong, just that I see Aster differently.
In Fabric is probably one of the films I think about the most. Although there are lots of reasons I love film, my affectual relationship to a film is a big part of what influences whether or not it becomes a favourite of mine. And Stickland’s films are phenomenological smorgasbords, lol. Also, some of his other films explore the sonic dimension of horror (or filmmaking itself) and I used to both write on and create sound based media installations so a lot of what he’s doing excites me.
I realize that I didn’t actually answer the original question before jumping into the comversation
I’d say my favourite from of the year so far is Stopmotion by Robert Morgan. I’ve been a fan of Morgan’s for a long time and I really enjoyed his first feature.
Longlegs and Maxxxine were both excellent.
Although not from 2024, I think the film I enjoyed the most this year is from 2003, Perpetrator by Jennifer Reeder. Really great, surrealist horror.
Yeah, I think we mostly agree on Aster. And more importantly, we agree on Hereditary being a quality film.
So what is it specifically about In Fabric that makes you think about it the most? I won’t have much to add to it since, as I said, I don’t remember anything, but I’m interested.
I’ve been on the fence about whether I should bother watching Stopmotion or not, and I think if it’s your favourite then I’m going to add it back onto my watchlist. I don’t know if I’ll get to it or not but it’ll be there.
Have you watched any of Morgan’s shorts? If you can find it, watch Bobby Yeah before Stopmotion. It will given you an idea of his sensibilities, and will also inform your watching of his feature.
