Hi Grouveers. This is potentially incredibly contentious, but I’m looking for information and I thought it might be a good jumping off point for folks who want to [calmly/friendly/rationally] discuss current events. It goes without saying, but don’t be a jerk and don’t let this devolve into partisan political nonsense. I’ll just delete the thread if it gets gross, and admins feel free to do the same.
Anyways, my question is with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get clear, factual information. Does anyone have any recommendations on resources that just lay out “this is what has happened and what is happening?” I don’t care if it’s a thousand pages, I just want to know like “x happened” “y retaliated” “hamas’ role is _”. I find it difficult to form opinions not based on feelings when everything you read is “this side is right, this side is wrong, and that’s eternally immutable.”
I’m not quite sure Grouvee is the best place for discussing current events, I’m all for keeping up with the news and understanding what’s going on around the world, but it’s important to remember a lot of people use gaming/forums as escapism from feelings of despair or hopelessness, I don’t know if it’s common here or not, but I’ve done it before.
obviously, no one is being forced to look at this thread, but I’d have a good think about whether this is a good idea or not, if I were you.
Yep, and Grouvee is also not a site dedicated to music, food, or drinks, and those off topic threads are fine so if people choose to engage, hopefully they behave.
With all respect, but I don’t really think you can equate politics and social issues plaguing our society with food and drink threads. I don’t mean to come off as insulting, but people never really ‘behave’ here when the political discussions come around. I understand we likely hold different views, but I am a bit bothered with the comparison between the two. Food and drinks aren’t really that controversial (or rather, as controversial as discussing highly nuanced issues on a gaming website), again, just because you can have one thing does not really mean you should have the other.
It’s late at night here, so maybe I’m not making the most sense, but think about it for a tic, are food and drinks really comparable to political issues? I think it’s fairly apparent if you consider it, that food is universal, anyone can talk about it. Maybe some may have a bad experience with some food, but we require food to live. Food can only be divisive when it comes to how you make it, eat it, etc. (hot dog, is it a sandwich? is an example) but social issuues and political issues are not as seemingly trivial. Maybe it’s just me but I feel this holds a lot of weight for some people, some may even have trauma from conflicts similar to the one you’re discussing, by all means, do what you want to, I’m just saying REALLY think about it, instead of firing off a ‘this is okay so so is this’ response (I have no problem with that, by the way, I’m simply suggesting you think in depth about it). Also, have you seen how political discussions turn out here? someone always comes out of the woodwork and gets nasty about it and then others get less nasty back. I just think it’s a bit of a shame, when there are already so many places to discuss the news, also, opinions of posters on Grouvee are generally pretty similar when it comes to politics, I’ve noticed, the thread for ‘factual information’ will likely become an echo-chamber. again, post what you want to, feel free to, It doesn’t affect me in the slightest, but It’s just a thought.
I don’t want to sound pedantic at all but I firmly believe there’s no objectivity at all in any sort of news reporting (or anything at all) and that searching for an objective truth/the facts is just a chimera. They are all stories made by people with their own bias (conscious or subconscious) and reported/investigated by looking at records (made by more people) or interviewing (other people). That’s not even touching the subject of editorial lines, media financists, sponsors, and so on.
In this particular case, initially there were two opposed points of view: Palestine/Hamas and Israel/IDF. Regardless of the side I chose, both sides had completely opposing interpretations for anything that happened (school or hospital bombing/terrorists hiding; people receiving help getting shot/frenzy attackers on the IDF personal; children being sniped/mistakes(?)), and each media decided to follow one or the other narratives depending on who they believed the most. It isn’t hard to say that media where israel has a huge institutional support (UK, USA, Germany) reports things more closely related to the IDF side, while other media (a lot in my country, for instance, which has a long standing respect relationship with the Palestinian cause) reports stuff more closely to the Palestinian side.
Where’s the truth? Hard to say. Probably the best way to tell is by following how the coverage shifts: the guardian, which is a UK outlet which was very cautious about getting against what the israeli state was doing, started to report earlier this year about massacres and civilian bombings. Still not as hardly as other sources in other countries do, but that’s probably the most telling thing it can be by now.
Three thoughts to bounce off the conversation so far- can this conversation be had? Yes. As the person who made both the food and drinks forums on this site, I find expressing political ideas as necessary as reading the recipes I post to my drinks. So please engage here. I plan to and I hope others do. To be serious, I think about how necessary it is often and do not engage politically as vocally as I’d like out of fear of misstepping and having a safe space to express political thoughts would allow me to discuss those thoughts before declaring them out loud.
I also agree that there is no objectivity in journalism (or anything else). However, I still think this thread is important because we can discuss politics together and reach a perhaps more-objective or at least more-informed political opinion than we did before the discussion.
I am a regular listener to Sam Seder’s The Majority Report which is focused on America, but does tackle a lot of global issues. Similarly, I am subscribed to Ken Klippenstein’s substack. I check Reuters and Al Jazeera regularly. I also check in with several political streamer folks, but none that I feel are worth recommending.
Just want to say, I know/agree about the points raised re: this thread existing, but like I said, I’m trying it. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and concern.
I can offer more insight to why I’m asking about this, but for now, I’m just looking for a good guide on the history and background to better understand. I figured the folks here may have some input. Not something I wanted to discuss on Facebook et al.
I’m fine with this topic being here, in case anyone cared. I get the reasons why others wouldn’t but I’m fine with it.
My only real comment on this topic is more personal than related to the news reporting. Since Oct 7, my knowledge about the conflict has gone up quite a bit. I don’t claim any expertise but I’ve gained quite a bit of background. One thing that’s been very clear to me is that Israel absolutely needs legitimate criticism.
I work on a college campus, one that was featured in the national news for the student protests. The particular protest encampment on my campus was located two blocks from my office and I biked directly past it in the morning and evening on y commute. It started off fairly reasonable, as far as demands/chants et al, but quickly it turned into “From the River to the Sea” and especially “Intifada!!! Intifada!!!” All I can think when I hear that is, who the hell will pay any attention to what you say now? Why on Earth would any Israeli, or any of the 95%+ of Jews in the world who believe Israel has the right to exist listen to what you have to say? When you chant “I want to kill you” at someone, of course that someone will become a hardliner.
And the same could be said for Palestine. Why would you expect Palestinians to support a peaceful solution that brings them a state when Israel uses the War in Gaza as cover for grabbing more land for settlements in the West Bank? Both sides only allow for the most hardline stance of their opponents to be the one that exists.
Until Israelis accept that an independent Palestinian state has to exist and Palestinians give up on this River to the Sea fantasy, there will never be a solution.
I don’t feel the expansionism behaviour of israel can be equated to the Palestinian response, which imo can be categorised to the right of rebellion, since from the british ruling, their self determination and the right to their land has been diminished. Their relationship with egypt, iraq, lebanon, syria is a different issue, but the palestinian problem’s main issue was the non official recognition of a state by the countries that decided/benefited the most of the existence and expansion of israel, which happened to be also the most influential ones in the main international institutions.
Just responding to “from the river to the sea” and intifada - I think these are matters of semantics that mean different things to the speakers and the target. College kids can be well intentioned but also over eager and ignorant. I would imagine most aren’t actually calling for the death of Israelis but also not thinking about the tone of their messaging.
A rhetorical, eternal question - is violence ever a viable response for the oppressed?
And I don’t think that Hamas’ use of rape, intentional targeting of children, and kidnapping/torture can be equated to the IDF. The IDF does plenty wrong and there’s more than enough videos available of how they treat Palestinian civilians to offer criticism but not at the same level. But then, Hamas is probably only in power in Gaza because Israel wanted to do anything to prevent the possibility of a Palestinian state. Nothing is equitable about this but there’s plenty to get people to remain hardliners.
The only viable solution for peace that I see is a two state solution. I don’t know on what boundaries, though. Israel grabs more and more land and will definitely grind Palestinian lives down to a corner of arid nothing if given a chance.
On the semantics, it’s not controversial that both the first and second intifada were defined by increased violence. The word itself can have a larger meaning but it’s been used in a very specific way in the Israel-Palestine conflict. And for listeners who are sympathetic to Israel, it’s expected that they would hear that meaning. Especially when it’s used in defense of Hamas’ position, which is openly stated to be about killing every Israeli.
As for violence, sure, my country was founded in a violent revolution. And Israel’s actions in the West Bank show that if Palestinians weren’t violent, they would probably get mistreated even worse. But you have to expect violent responses to violent actions. I’m not big on the ethics of war; supposedly just wars of the past involved slaughtering millions of innocent people. But an oppressed people often have very little other choice. Certainly, no peaceful solution has brought normal citizenship to Palestinians but using violence brings a response that destroys what little normalcy they had built.
So I don’t know what the answer is. It would probably take a generation of both sides losing enough that a truly just peace looks attractive by comparison? Israelis lose less in the conflict which means they’re not incentivized to seek peace. By the time that changes, it’ll probably be too late.
And I don’t think that Hamas’ use of rape, intentional targeting of children, and kidnapping/torture can be equated to the IDF.
Even without considering the differences between the origins of each response, there’s documentation of the IDF committing every single one of the acts you mentioned there too. And rape itself is such an institutionalised weapon by the IDF that today, there’s a sort of internal conflict in israel because there’s a faction that tried to detain some officers for rape of a “prisoner” while a large group of protesters opposed that action because that’s how it should be, and they are all “big boys”.
That’s a headline you’ll never once ever see in reference to Hamas. Yes, individual IDF soldiers no doubt commit abuses. As I say, I’ve seen plenty videos of those abuses. Israel is actually willing to punish those abuses sometimes. Nothing at all similar could ever be said of Hamas.
Even when soldiers aren’t held legally accountable to the degree that they should be, Israel’s very own press reports on that shortcoming.
The two states/political bodies are simply not comparable.
I think we would agree that Palestinians hands are forced by being put in a situation where no peaceful option offers them a chance to live normally. I would say Israel is in a similar bind, albeit one they unwittingly help create.
And it’s very curious how the sde taiman allegations, which have been “a rumour” for years, became only reported once the ICJ and the UN stated that there were serious human rights allegations and conditions of apartheid by israel. And the “israel is preoccupied by this” is also a bit odd, considering the main suspect of the latest rape was released and almost held like a hero a day or two ago.
Your link in israel’s sexual affairs complaints is very, very misleading: it considers sexual allegations inside the army and, as the same source cites, it’s due to female soldiers being more confident in denouncing, meaning it is counting sexual abuses between their very own soldiers. Completely unrelated to rape as a war crime.
I just don’t understand how people can taker Trump seriously. Have you guys seen the interview where he basically accuses Kamilla Harris of saying she’s back (apparently she used to be Indian ) to get votes? I mean, WTF, backwater Yanks? How is this bloke getting so much support?
Seriously, explain it to me, because it all looks like it should be a bad Monty Python skit.
I know a relative who writes extensively about this situation, if you want me to link his stuff. Just don’t try to cyberstalk me through that connection, anyone
Yes. The entire conflict is a mess. Hamas intentionally designs the conflict to maximize Palestinian civilian deaths and Israel seems to use that as an excuse to not care as much as they should about Palestinian civilian deaths. If you told me Israel was targeting journalists specifically, I would believe it.
My first link was to establish that Israel has a rule of law that it will occasionally hold its soldiers to (including where it concerned abuse of Palestinians) while my second link was really that Israel has a free press that will tell on itself. Gaza does not have anything like that. As I said, the two states are simply not comparable and there’s a reason human rights abuse in Israel is simultaneously more discussed yet less egregious than in Gaza. There isn’t a single Palestinian civilian being held in the basement of an Israeli civilian to be regularly raped and abused with the knowledge and support of the government. The two states are simply not comparable.
) to get votes? I mean, WTF, backwater Yanks? How is this bloke getting so much support?