I understand. To be clear, I’m not arguing for anarchy. I believe governments have a role to play in the economy. I’m just very much opposed to dismantling capitalism altogether, because all in all, it’s pretty great.
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Greed is facilitated by the capitalist systems. Yes it can corrupt any system, but it is actively promoted and rewarded in a capitalist system. While people may have that mindset of not wanting to do business with greedy people, that is definitely not the way things work out in reality. Freedom is also not some ultimate goal, and should always come second to wellbeing. But I think Cleru has already shown that far better than I could.
I’m honestly not at all interested in dismantling the capitalist system, or a proponent of communism (though I definitely think we need to make a huge swing toward more socialist systems), but I will defend anyone who wishes to criticise the capitalist system, because I do think it’s inherently deeply flawed, and criticism is the only way to go forward. It also has been taboo for far too long to give any criticism on capitalism, so it can do with some. Never shoot down criticism in general, it’s the way to improve. Even people just complaining without constructive criticism is healthy, hearing about dissatisfaction is good.
Again, I don’t agree that games are inseperable from capitalism as I’ve said before. And some parts would definitely flourish in an environment where profit is not an issue.
Also, just out of curiosity, seeing as I take it you like the game, I always understood that FF7 was deeply critical of capitalism/corporatism? I never got far enough into the game to know too much about it, but that was always what I read about it.
I’m from Europe as well.
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I’m gonna keep doing it anyway.
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Very interesting. I’ll have to look into that. Doesn’t it just prove that you need a free society for good ideas to flourish?
Because that issue would never happens under capitalism. No sir. Not at all. Never. How could you think that. ah-ah.
Also, Capitalism != ‘free society’.
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As far as the origins of greed and whether capitalism facilitates it, we’re just going to disagree. I don’t even think of capitalism as a system so much as what simply follows when humans have the freedom to pursue what they want. As for how important freedom is, I think again we just disagree. I don’t think wellbeing is guaranteed, but freedom ought to be.
I totally agree that nothing is above criticism. Capitalism has its issues, certainly. However, I have yet to read any criticisms on this forum that weren’t just regurgitated Marx. I don’t find Marx very compelling since we’ve had an entire century to test his ideas and the results weren’t very favorable.
As for video games. Could you maybe point to a game studio that doesn’t operate under the profit motive?
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You know, if you took the time to actually think of an intelligent response instead of pithy comebacks, I might take you more seriously.
Alas.
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Forgot to respond to the FF7 thing. I do indeed love that game, and yes, it does indeed feature an evil megacorporation as the antagonist. First and foremost, that game is a work of entertainment set in a fictional world, so I don’t look to it for a belief system. But yes, I think it has some great things to say about power in the hands of a few. I find Shinra corporation to be a very compelling villain for our modern world. It’s a great “nightmare” version of a big company that speaks to many contemporary fears. Shinra corp. also has elements of a corrupt authoritarian bureaucracy—most corporations don’t departments of urban planning or defense.
Anyway. It’s a great game that uses the spectre of a big corporation to tell story of good and evil in a fairly modern setting, but I don’t think its primary goal is to critique capitalism. Again, it was a mass-produced, multi-million dollar piece of entertainment made for a consumer electronic device, so I’m not really going to read it through an “anti-capitalist” lens.
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A work of art expresses the views of the people, not of a corporation. The writers of Final Fantasy VII clearly had a criticism to make against monopolys, capitalism and in defense of ecology. I wrote an essay about it.
You can’t dismiss that just because it’s ‘a product’.
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I don’t think that the fact that something is made as part of a system means that it will not be critical of the system. There have been Soviet-funded films and literature that were highly critical of the Soviet regime. The fact that one is part of a system does not equal agreeing with the system, even when profiting from it to publish the work.
And again, a non-profit game studio would be working in a pro-profit landscape. Competition is always stacked against you in that situation, and that’s why it’s rare. Still it does exist. Any student project is non-profit. Any ‘pay what you want’ project on itch.io is in essence non-profit. There’s some companies providing funding in a way that is not meant to get profit, but just let the people get their product out. Funniest thing though, no major platform supports non-profit publishing.
Not-for-profit game developer faces major obstacles - Polygon
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Your essay isn’t in English, so I won’t be able to read it.
FF7 certainly has strong environmental themes. I think it’s totally fair to call it a cautionary tale against rampant exploitation of the natural world. I don’t see anything in there that’s anti-capitalist. But again, my understanding of “capitalism” is founded on private property. I can’t recall the game ever even talking about property. I’m not saying that a product can’t also be a work of art, but if you have a work that is explicitly anti-capialist, but then you aggressively try to make money off of it, then that would be the height of hypocrisy. I find FF7’s story to be heartfelt and sincere, so I don’t think it was made by hypocrites.
Regardless, that’s just my take on the game. It’s possible that I’m forgetting some scenes. If you read an anti-capitalist message, then great. But don’t pretend that yours is the definitive interpretation.
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I don’t think the subversive Soviet works are really the same thing. That’s an example of a person expressing a dissenting opinion within an oppressive environment. I don’t think the developers of FF7 were subversively trying to speak out against their corporate masters. On the contrary, everything I’ve ever read about the development of that game makes it sound like it was founded on creative freedom.
In other words, I really think the Shinra scenario was just a compelling setting for a story. I don’t see an articulate political statement. The game’s story kind of leaves all that behind after the first few hours… it really becomes about the value of human life. At least, that’s what it’s about for me.
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I keep forgetting to respond to your points, my bad. I can’t seem to edit my posts, either. Let me read that article.
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That’s really interesting, thanks for the link. I hope that they get some kind of infrastructure so that they can publish their work on a broader scale. I’d like to give those games a try someday.
I have to point out, though, that my contention wasn’t that non-profit video games can’t exist, but that video games wouldn’t exist outside of a capitalist system. Maybe it’s too early to tell, but I can never foresee a world in which the video game industry is founded on non-profits. How could it grow and change if businesses are always breaking even? Just doesn’t work. It would stagnate and die.
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Well if you have a group of developers that are satisfied with their life as is then they have no need to pursue extra profit as long as they are fulfilled artistically. Some people have their needs and desires easily satiated. Studios could grow if like-minded people decided to collaborate on projects. I’m ignoring the horrible mismanagement from people leaving on joining. That could be alleviated somehow by teaching the importance of solidarity in the group or offering some incentive, though that’d be going back to for profit model under a different name, but perhaps it could be done. Many non-profit projects outside of entertainment industry seem to work out from time to time.
What about early science and philosophy? Virtually all of it was done out of curiosity or intellectual fulfillment, sometimes for recognition. I don’t see how more money would accelerate scientific progress, assuming that all equipment and people is provided for. I think even nowadays most people don’t get into theoretical sciences ‘for the money’ but out of passion.
Though I don’t deny that profit is a huge motivator. I can imagine that a big part of present day entertainment industry is the way it is because of that. It’s hard to think Call of Duty and Transformers movies being made in a non-profit industry. The problem is that purely for profit mindset leads to stuff like microtransactions and nickel-and-diming consumers in other ways. Although in theory for profit market is protected from it by the assumption that all economic agents, including consumers, are rational and won’t allow themselves to be exploited. That assumption however is recently too often shown to be not quite true. Whether consumers are not really rational and allow themselves to be exploited or they don’t have a choice when it’s either get exploited and get something or get nothing at all is anyone’s guess.
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In my experience, when a developer treats their customers like trash, they’re punished for it. What’s an example of the consumer being exploited in the video game industry? People always have a choice.
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The entire EA lootbox situation and them trying to defy the Belgian goverment. Lootboxes are a pretty predatory solution just like gambling is. Or the state in which mobile gaming market is - it is a wasteland of terrible, cookie-cutter Freemium titles that bait users with misleading ads.
A short anecdote: a lot of my friends are FIFA veteransand buy new game each year - that is not bad as arguably the roster, mechanics and graphics updates are worth it. They don’t buy Fifa coins and usually just grind them and bridge gap with their skill accumulated over the years. But other friend wanted to get into the series and started by spending a $100+ on fifa coins to get a decent team, on top of a $60 game purchase. Not even top tier players but a chance of getting a decent team from the random packs just so he could get to feel like a cool kid. You can argue he’s an idiot and nobody forced him to do it but these kind of people are more numerous than one would think.
I’m also not saying that for-profit is bad - most of the industry is for-profit bar some indie titles and there are hundreds of amazing games that respect the consumer by giving them a fair deal. I’m also not a proponent protecting people from themselves, I value freedom a lot, but I like to see exploitative practices being called out since a lot of people are susceptible to peer pressure and clever marketing.
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I see what you’re saying. I think those practices should be called out, too–that’s only fair.
I think I can sum up my feelings on a non-profit gaming industry simply: I’ll believe it when I see it.
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I’ll believe it when I see it
I think that’s a very reasonable approach though I also think we actually did see non profit games in the form of flash games. There were some real gems among them but sadly they’re a product of a bygone era because of their unsustainability and limitation to games of smaller scope. Flash depreciation is definitely not the reason as other game dev tools are more ubiquitous then ever but I’ve yet to see anything modern approaching the quality and quantity of those flash games and I’ve played my own share of Ludum Dares and poorly designed indies.
Mods kinda fall into that category. It also helps that the idea that mods are free is already rooted in most people’s minds. But even behemoths like Enderal depend on a commercial product, in this case Skyrim and Bethesda’s mod tools, and a huge modding community due to base game’s popularity.
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